A Board for Female Wrestling Fans

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
femalewrestlingchannel → Updates and General FWC Discussion → Episode 42 "Unqualified Submissions" and other Questions
 

Topic: Episode 42 "Unqualified Submissions" and other Questions

Page 1 of 1  sorted by
femalewrestlingchannel
better known as "Johnny Ringo"
Status: Offline
Posts: 83
Date:

Episode 42 "Unqualified Submissions" and other Questions
Permalink  
 

The FWC Rules - CLICK HERE

Now that we have an open forum here, please air your opinions on how to fix the unqualified submissions issue.

Some questions and comments to get the discussion started:

- I don't want a girl pinching the other one with her knee, knee on skin, being a legal submission.   Sorry.   This is the female wrestling channel, not the female fight club.

- What happens if one girl gets a Charlee Horse in the middle of a matchup?   Does that count as a fall against her?

- Should we have time limits on falls?   Fans might say no, but from here, these girls were absolutely dead.   They held up better than most of our girls would have in those circumstances to be totally honest.  (with a match going that long). 

- Should we have an Exhaustion Tapout?   If a girl just can't go any longer, should an exhaustion tapout be allowed?

- Or, should we just make it more simple?  If a girl submits to an unqualified submission, like say a headlock, or something that is not illegal by the rules, should we just count the submission? 

The issue in my mind is there is no clear way to penalize someone and the system could be easily abused (by the girls themselves) if we don't have standards in place.   For example.  Let's say that an unqualified submission takes place, no one is penalized, and the girls just reset.   That would encourage one girl to go ahead and "submit" to an unqualified submission if she is in a bad position on the mat...........simply.........to get the reset.

This is one example of many.

The ironing out of our rules will be a continuing process.  We don't want a lot of rules, we just want things to be clear and make sense.



__________________

Real Female Wrestling in storyline form.  Where will the story go?  We never know, nor do the fans - http://www.femalewrestlingchannel.com
femalewrestlingchannel
better known as "Johnny Ringo"
Status: Offline
Posts: 83
Date:
Permalink  
 
Happened again on Episode 43 on a fall. Come on guys, jump in here. I need input on this.

__________________

Real Female Wrestling in storyline form.  Where will the story go?  We never know, nor do the fans - http://www.femalewrestlingchannel.com
thatguylouis
Member
Status: Offline
Posts: 6
Date:
Permalink  
 
Hmmm I think this is a pretty difficult issue to sort out. I think if a girl submits to an unqualified submission she shouldn't lose the round but you should instead reset but give the girl who submitted a penalty start similar to what you do for forcing an opponent off the mat.

__________________
Wrstlelvr
Member
Status: Offline
Posts: 9
Date:
Permalink  
 
To be honest, it's simple. No sport, or other production allows a submission if got from outside the rules. In UFC if someone taps from a fish-hook then its a null submission. Same here.

Really doesn't matter how long it takes. To be honest, you'd be better off moving to a time limited match format - say 20 minutes, most submissions wins, and if it's 0-0 at the end, go into sudden death.

This solves all problems.

__________________
femalewrestlingchannel
better known as "Johnny Ringo"
Status: Offline
Posts: 83
Date:
Permalink  
 
Thanks Louis. Only issue I see with that is, girls could yell a submission on just about anything, and if it's unqualified, then the girl applying it gets a penalty and starts on bottom. I think too many would manipulate that system if we went that way in my personal opinon.

Wrstlelvr. Most of these ladies are everyday girls and (at this point) simply don't have the endurance for that I don't believe. A couple of them, for sure, but the majority not so much. A time limit is probably a necessity to be sure.

(Keep in mind we do pins and submissions, not just pins, but your statement above could easily be amended to those with the most "pins and submissions" wins, and if it's 0-0 at the end, they go into sudden death.)

I like the idea of time limits and sudden death, because I really hated calling a draw on Episode 42. I hope to never do that again.

However, we still have the issue of unqualified submissions and this must be solved. I just feel if we make it a "free for all", that ladies are going to do moves outside of the movesets that we want them performing. And, we don't want things overly technical. We want it to be competitive and sexy.

I'm not familiar with what a "null" submission means. Does that mean they simply reset?

__________________

Real Female Wrestling in storyline form.  Where will the story go?  We never know, nor do the fans - http://www.femalewrestlingchannel.com
Bruce_Vayne
Member
Status: Offline
Posts: 8
Date:

RE: Episode 42

Permalink  
 
If a girl submits to anything unqualified but not illegal it should be a fall and she should lose that round. Its a tap out and she's giving up that's a way out and should be treated like any other pin or submission. If the move or position is illegal and can be verbally warned by the ref and move or position is not forfeited then it should be penalized by a point(fall or submission) for the other girl. That way illegal positions and moves are feared and respected by the competitors.

__________________
femalewrestlingchannel
better known as "Johnny Ringo"
Status: Offline
Posts: 83
Date:

Episode 42 "Unqualified Submissions" and other Questions
Permalink  
 

Thank you everybody for your input.

I think I have solved the unqualified submissions issue. If anyone sees any glitches in this, please comment.

2 new things being added.

1. The "Stop".

Effective Episode 44 we are going to allow ladies the ability to "stop" the match. Ladies can stop a match for any reason. It could be a Charlee horse, it could be a broken nail, it could be because they got pinched, or got their hair pulled, doesn't matter.

This will come with consequences, however.

Everytime a "Stop" is called, it will be reviewed if necessary. 

What we must review is very simple. Whether the stop was the cause of the other girl performing a penalty upon her, or if it was because she simply couldn't continue for whatever reason.

(Example: If we find that excessive or unnecessary hairpulling caused the "stop", and it was not agreed upon before the matchup, then the girl doing the hair pulling would be assessed a penalty).

Ladies need to learn the differences between saying "Stop" or "Tap". Stop is going to be much more dangerous. For a girl that uses a "stop" in a matchup, this is highly discouraged, thus she will start the next fall under the opposing girl as the opposing girl will start in mount position.   A penalty will not be assessed, however.

Therefore, "Stop" is highly discouraged. We want all girls to eat well, be stretched out, and be in good physical shape when they step onto our mats. They need to be prepared days before their matches. We want our falls ended with our core moves, not with girls calling "stop" if possible.

Important Note:   A girl calling a "Tap" on an unqualified submission will be considered the same as calling a stop and she will start the next fall victim to the mount position, though a penalty will not be assessed.

2. Time limit

Effective Episode 44 we will be doing a 15 minute time limit on each fall. Lady wrestlers will be warned with 1 minute left to go that they have 1 minute left to secure a pin or a submission. In the event that a pin or submission is not scored............the entire fall will be rendered null and void.

Most of these girls are not Olympic athletes (none of them are) so we think it's a good idea to cut the falls at 15 minutes. If it's too long, we might even go down to 10 minutes in the future, but I doubt that will be necessary.

After some long and hard thought, we will allow draws on the final fall if the two girls do not come to a conclusion.

We will let all custom match buyers know this is a possibility. The only negative is that they will not get a clear winner. But, the major positive is that they are getting a hard fought match and we almost certainly will have a feud to feed off of when a draw happens.

Does anyone see any problems in any of this?



__________________

Real Female Wrestling in storyline form.  Where will the story go?  We never know, nor do the fans - http://www.femalewrestlingchannel.com
mwalker587
Member
Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink  
 
It makes sense to me. It looks like a logical way of dealing with this issue. We will have to see how it works out in an actual match though.

__________________

Proud to be a   FWC Legacy sponsor!
ashleywildcat
"The All American Girl"
Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Date:

RE: Episode 42

Permalink  
 
I agree that a time limit is a great idea, as far as "unqualified submissions" correct me if I'm wrong but it seems your biggest concern with these is that girls will abuse it so why not allow only one fall to be awarded on an unqualified submission?

__________________

Make me the top girl! - CLICK HERE
On Facebook - CLICK HERE
femalewrestlingchannel
better known as "Johnny Ringo"
Status: Offline
Posts: 83
Date:

RE: Episode 42 "Unqualified Submissions" and other Questions
Permalink  
 
Essentially, in the event of abuse, a penalty would be called. We want to differentiate between yelling "Ouch" and "Tap" or "Stop". If the pain is prolonged and an unqualified submission, or "stop" as it will now be called, happens, then we will review it.

If it is the result of a penalty, then a penalty will be assessed and the match will reset.

If it is the result of a stop, then the girl calling the stop will start the next fall on bottom.

I'm not seeing too many current scenarios where it can be abused under the new system, but please give some examples if you can think of them.

__________________

Real Female Wrestling in storyline form.  Where will the story go?  We never know, nor do the fans - http://www.femalewrestlingchannel.com
Wreath
Member
Status: Offline
Posts: 12
Date:
Permalink  
 
Thanks for the topic, i learn new things about these scenarios.

__________________
SqeezeCrushScissorGirlsFlat
Member
Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink  
 

I may not be understanding things correctly, but I'm not sure I agree with the whole concept of an unqualified submission.  A submissions should be either legal or not legal.

I believe, under standard FWC rules, the only submissions/pins that count are body-scissors, head-scissors, 10 count pins, and smothers.  If these are the only allowable submissions, then these are the only submissions that should count.  Since, we are working from the standpoint of a few allowable submissions.

I would argue for the following two exceptions -

1. Exhaustion:  If a girl is exhausted, and refuses to continue fighting, that should cost her a point.  She should relax, and take her time.  But, if she is unable to continue after a reasonable length of time (5 to 10 minutes tops), she should concede the match.  No coming back on a different day to finish the fight, that's dishonest.  A new day is a different fight, NOT the same fight.

2.  Pinned to submission:  If a girl is pinned down and is exhausted, unable to breath, or emotionally broken:  If she stops the fight, this should count as a point against her.  Just make sure the submission came from the pin and not from something else.

Injurys:  If there is a unintended injury, no point should be awarded.  Stop the match.  Let the girl relax and take her time.  If she can't continue she should withdraw from the match.  If the injured girl is ahead in points or if the points are even, the match is a draw.  If the injured girl is behind in points, the match is a loss for her.  Again, No coming back on a different day to finish the fight, that's dishonest.  A new day is a different fight, NOT the same fight.

Time limits:  I don't agree with time limits for a single fall.  I don't think it's honest to give the girls a break after 15 minutes that the audience can't see.  I time limit for the entire match is fine.  Perhaps 25 min, or 40 min if the girls both really want it.

A Draw is fine:  Given the difficulty of securing a submissions with these rules, I see nothing wrong what so ever with a draw.  I realize most people don't want to see a draw, but you can always have a rematch.

That's my two cents worth.  I'm sorry this post is so lengthy.

 



__________________
femalewrestlingchannel
better known as "Johnny Ringo"
Status: Offline
Posts: 83
Date:
Permalink  
 
No problems on the post being lengthy. I read it all!

I agree that the only allowable submissions from here on out are the ones we have. Thus, that's why I think the concept of using "Stop" covers what you are speaking of. If a girl calls "stop", or submits to a "unqualified submission" (meaning a submission that is not legal) then it means two things.

The girl either was not supposed to tap, which would then be deemed a "stop", or the other girl did something she was not supposed to do...........thus triggering a penalty.

"Stop" also covers your two exceptions in my opinion unless I'm wrong.

Your point on Injuries:

Some things to consider. What if a customer is paying for a matchup? Let's say it's 1-1 and one of the girls gets injured. You say to cancel the matchup entirely. This presents a massive problem. Do the girls get paid? And, does the customer get refunded? Certainly, you can see the quagmire. Thus, this is why we go ahead and continue the matches at this time. Even if it's on another day, which has not happened often at all.

Time Limits:

The hard thing to consider from the producer's point of view (me) is when you see girls coughing, gagging, and completely winded and you are thinking about the needs of the fans and the safety of the girls at the same time.

Not to mention, especially when the girls are new, which most of them are. We do want them to come back! We don't want to kill them just for the sake of fan's getting their jollies off. They are real people, none of them are trained athletes, and it's going to be a slow progression finding the right girls who can handle it.

For example: One one of the episodes, one of the girls puked for 20 minutes in the bathroom. She ended up finishing the match and you probably would never guess the episode or the girl. This is one example of many. That's why it's hard to keep "hard" two minute time limits between falls and we also don't want to cancel things, and then have to set back up again the next day.

Still open to all opinions on the subject, but I just want to make sure people have a better view of the full picture here.



__________________

Real Female Wrestling in storyline form.  Where will the story go?  We never know, nor do the fans - http://www.femalewrestlingchannel.com
SqeezeCrushScissorGirlsFlat
Member
Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink  
 

I'll try to reply to this point-by-point later.



__________________
gmatthewb
Eh? *FWC Legacy Sponsor*
Status: Offline
Posts: 19
Date:
Permalink  
 
I fully agree with a time limit, but I would suggest a time limit for the whole match. Possibly 20-30 minutes tops, which is a long time for any competitive match anyway. At the end of the time limit, whom ever has the most falls wins. So, if the time limit is 20 minutes, then at the end of 20 minutes the match is over. If there are no pins or submissions, at least the ladies have given it their best for the match and there can be a rematch between them. If a customer has paid for the match, then they are getting a 20 minute match regardless. The ladies get paid because they both put in that 20 minutes of a hard fought match. If there is a tie or draw, then both ladies get paid the same amount since there is no clear winner. This way the match is not a best of 5 kind of thing either. The match goes the full time and whom ever gets the most falls wins.

As for unqualified submissions. After one of those, the submission should be reviewed. If it is clear that it could have been prevented, then there should be a penalty. If it is not clear it could have been prevented then the fall restarts. By 'prevented' I mean that if it is a joint lock of some kind, then whom ever is applying it should not be applying enough force to cause a submission. Also with grabbing the neck or any choke hold. These are not allowed anyway, and penalties should be given. If it is a clear accident like a knee or elbow in the wrong place when just moving to a new position, then a restart. Obviously this can be abused, be we can hope the ladies want to win fairly. Remember, the fans are watching.

The unqualified submissions is a very tough subject to deal with. Maybe a suggestion could be to allow a vote kind of thing. Taking into account my first suggestion about a match time limit. A match goes for 20 minutes, lady A gets 2 submissions, 1 pin and one unqualified submission. Lady B gets 3 submissions. Allow the fans 2 or 3 days to vote on the unqualified submission. If the fans feel the submission is acceptable, then that fall goes to lady A and she wins the match. If the fans vote that the submission is unqualified, then the fall does not count and the match is a draw.

__________________

*FWC LEGACY SPONSOR* - Feel free to send me a friend request and hello message on Facebook - CLICK HERE
SqeezeCrushScissorGirlsFlat
Member
Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Date:
Permalink  
 

I'm sure that while it's possible to convince a potential fighter to try a match, it's much more difficult getting her to come back once she's experienced a match.  I also know that the majority of fans are extremely faint hearted.  They really just want to see one cute girl pin down another cute girl.  That's why fake wrestling is so popular in the U.S.  I've been to live events and I've seen the reaction, from the other spectators, when a fighter is desperately trying not to submit and is left in tears.  Many other fans are so faint hearted that they want to stop the fight.  So, I understand that Ringo is in an impossible situation trying to please everyone, and, at the same time retain his fighters.

I can't follow your discussion about "stops" and penalties.  If a fighter says "stop", that is usually a submission that awards the fall, unless the other fighter was breaking the rules or there was an unintentional injury.  

Now about injuries and sponsorships-

"Some things to consider. What if a customer is paying for a matchup? Let's say it's 1-1 and one of the girls gets injured. You say to cancel the matchup entirely. This presents a massive problem. Do the girls get paid? And, does the customer get refunded? Certainly, you can see the quagmire. Thus, this is why we go ahead and continue the matches at this time. Even if it's on another day, which has not happened often at all."

Anyone who sponsors matches is going to have different expectations.  Because of this, I think sponsorships should be kept off the main storyline.  If another customer has a similar interest, the match can be sold as a separate clip.

I can't speak for other sponsors but here is how I see things.  If I'm paying for a match and a fighter is injured, exhausted or otherwise unable to continue, if she showed up and made an effort then, of course, she still gets paid.  I'd be satisfied with the abbreviated match.  It's not necessary to film another match on a different day.  Now, with that being said, I would be a little disappointed if the match only lasted 2 or 3 minutes.  

The fighters should always be paid regardless of what goes down, and the sponsor gets what he gets.  If a fighter does concede the match, I would look at the circumstances before deciding whether or not to sponsor her again.  If she gave her best, and simply couldn't keep fighting, I wouldn't hold it against her.  This is how I see things, and I don't really see a problem here.

"Time Limits:

The hard thing to consider from the producer's point of view (me) is when you see girls coughing, gagging, and completely winded and you are thinking about the needs of the fans and the safety of the girls at the same time. 

Not to mention, especially when the girls are new, which most of them are. We do want them to come back! We don't want to kill them just for the sake of fan's getting their jollies off. They are real people, none of them are trained athletes, and it's going to be a slow progression finding the right girls who can handle it."

I see your point about needing to retain fighters, network, and continue to bring in new talent.  I think the fighters need to be sat down, counseled and given a realistic expectation about how they are likely to do.  To many of them are ultra-competitive, and go in certain that they will kick ass against a more experienced opponent.  They are not prepared for the mental anguish of loosing.  Scarlett vs Ashley was a good example.  Scarlett went in super confident and determined to win.  Which I think was admirable.  And, she didn't lose badly.  She when down well, and couldn't help getting pinned.  But was she mentally prepared for this?

I don't agree with time limits on falls.  I think you should set a match time limit 25-40 minutes depending on the wishes of the fighters.  First to 4 submissions or the time limit whatever comes first.  I think the fighters should be allowed to push through their exhaustion.  When a wrestler is exhausted what will usually happen is they will slow down and play dead.  These fighters are grown adults, not children.  They are capable of looking after themselves and don't need anyone to intervene for them.  Let them show the fans as much as they want.  If they both agree to a break no one is going to stop them anyway.

"One one of the episodes, one of the girls puked for 20 minutes in the bathroom. She ended up finishing the match and you probably would never guess the episode or the girl. This is one example of many. That's why it's hard to keep "hard" two minute time limits between falls and we also don't want to cancel things, and then have to set back up again the next day."

While I don't think this is sexy.  I still want to know everything thats going on around the matches and which fighter had to suffer through this.  It makes things seem so much more real to me.

I'm my sponsorships I know full well that things will happen and the fighters won't be able to keep to 1 or 2 minute breaks.  I only presented it as a goal that the wrestlers should aspire towards.  Instead of taking as long as they want between falls.  But if a wrestler needs to take more time she can take the time that she needs.  Just not "I think I'll drink lemonade for 5 minutes and chill".

Setting up the next day and getting a certain amount of length, might be necessary for some fans, and for the storyline.  But for me, if a fighter concedes after 5 minutes that is her choice.  It is fine with me.  Obviously, it reflects poorly on her, and I would look carefully at the circumstances of the concession before deciding to sponsor her again.

I have sponsored a body-scissors tournament once before so I do know what can feasibly be done.

Go to freshfite.com  scroll down to "sponsored body-scissor only tournament".

 



__________________
femalewrestlingchannel
better known as "Johnny Ringo"
Status: Offline
Posts: 83
Date:
Permalink  
 
I will respond to these points, just so you know, but I have not had a chance lately. I hope this becomes a continuing discussion until we get it down.

__________________

Real Female Wrestling in storyline form.  Where will the story go?  We never know, nor do the fans - http://www.femalewrestlingchannel.com
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.
 
Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse 		Powered by ActiveBoard